I always end up coming back to the idea that my values are arbitrarily contrived which seems to invalidate most of the meaning. How do you create meaning or motivation/reasons for doing anything?
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Re: Values
Mon, June 26, 2006 - 9:45 PMImPrOvIsE bAbY!
Geez, if it were only so easy. What gives values strength if not faith and acts of validation from the self? Yet we're confronted with circumstances that just, beg you to re-consider and even shatter our convictions...this particular cycle, so complexly simple.
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Re: Values
Thu, June 29, 2006 - 5:24 PMI would go quite as far as to say that one's values are arbitrary. A person's value system is constructed through life by many things: family, faith, personal experience, etc. "Arbitrary" seesm to suggest that one's value system is randomly acquired.
However, if you're suggesting that there is not absolute truth to our values, then I agree. But then, where IS there absolute truth?
As far as motivation goes, well, there are many reasons we do the things we do. Fear, the desire to associate with others, a need to express our creativity, physical lust, curiosity, hatred ... the list goes on and on. And are these motivations all based on values? I'm not sure. Do I eat because I value life? Or just because my body requires fuel?
Intriguing question. -
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Re: Values
Thu, June 29, 2006 - 8:06 PMValues are learned. I don't think there can be an absolute truth to them because they vary from person to person based on those very things that Joe mentioned.
As we experience, grow, and learn often our belief systems change and therefore the things we value do. I think the more important question is "is it an internal compass, or external one that drives your values and belief systems ?" Abritrary to me would be that you have absolutley no core ideals in place and are subject to every whim and individual with a story to tell. -
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Re: Values
Thu, June 29, 2006 - 9:48 PMOr maybe an inability to form or get behind any core ideals? Can you elaborate on the difference between values being driven by either an internal or external compass?
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 5:10 AMSomehow, as I grew to adulthood, the values of my family were inculcated to me but also were some values of my peers, if they were not too far from those of my family. And as I became a more integrated member of the larger society it seems that I began to test my values against the varying mores of the day. Out of this seeking and testing, combined with the experiences of life, I found a
values system that fit with my world view.It appears to me that the young people today are much more willing to accept the mores of the day than to employ critical thinking or values testing. Do others find this to be true as well? -
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 6:51 AM"difference between values being driven by either an internal or external compass"
Bryce, what I mean is when you re-evaluate your value system is it fueled by internal beliefs or to meet the needs of external forces (friends, lovers, co -workers, environment). I think one of the difficult things about measuring ones values is that they become confused with emotional/intellectual needs.
We value honesty, until it is easier to lie.
We value love, until we are given reason to hate.
We value democracy, until we are too lazy to vote.
And so on. Values to me are a set of beliefs that we hold ourselves up to regardless of whether it is convenient or easy. -
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 8:35 AMPerhaps there is no separation between our needs and our values. Perhaps our needs and desires help shape our values.
I agree that we SAY we value honesty, but if we lie because it's easier, aren't we then valuing ease instead of honesty?
I suppose my question is: Are our values the principles that we hold intellectually, in theory? Or are they the principles that we substantiate through our actions?
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 8:27 AMYour assessment regarding today's young people, in my experience, is totally accurate. Granted, I am exposed only to a relatively small group of white, middle-class, teens, but I do indeed find that most of them do not think critically. When asked to take a position on issues ranging from stem-cell research to the occupation of Iraq, most simply ape their parents beliefs, repeat what they've seen on television, or try to predict their teacher's (my) opinion. Whether this is the trend in high school and college, I cannot say.
Throughout American history there have been four periods when the values, beliefs, and principles of the nation have undergone revolutionary change. It tends to happen every 60 years or so. The last such occurance was in the late-1960s and early-'70s. The antipode of these periods are marked by an ascendancy of "traditional values", strong religious associations, and a lack of critical evaluation. Needless-to-say, we are in such a trough now. So, my point is that it's not surprising that today's teens would reflect the society in which they live. -
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 3:08 PM"middle-class, teens, but I do indeed find that most of them do not think critically. "
i think the source for this is entirely systemic and purposeful.
the degradation of the educational system helps to create easily manipulated consumers. the capacity for rational analysis has been greatly eradicated, not only in education, yet in literature, the media etc.
example: listen to a speech from the 1960's version the modern age. the latter sounds as if geared towards someone with, quite possibly, a learning disability. -
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 3:22 PMDo I understand you correctly? Are you suggesting that the U.S. educational system -- Dept. of Ed., school districts. administrations, teachers, etc. -- have an unstated GOAL to raise the children of the country to be valueless consumers?
Leaving myself open to the suggestion, I have to ask ... what experiences and observations do you base this on? -
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 4:09 PM"etc. -- have an unstated GOAL"
oh c'mon.
i don't think you really believe i was proposing that.. they have little control over the lack of funding.though, there is much mismanagment, as with any behemoth.
i'm hardly the first to suggest that inequities in funding and the removal of scientific consensus in the classroom in favor of pol-based ideologies and revisionist histories, etc.. cutting educational funding while cutting taxes for the trillionaires, i'm not sure makes the most logical or economic sense. plus, many of today's rich individuals were BENEFICIARIES of well funded educational systems and generous student loan structures...
i do think that the administrative positions- who receive by far, disproportionate salaries, are very out of touch with modern times.. and that the whole 'top down' managment scheme fills some people's pockets while students and teachers slog it out in very substandard conditions. yet, that's merely a sliver of it.
bottom line. big corporations run the show, get huge tax giveaways, enjoy the benefits of a zombie mouselike populace.. is it entirely mapped out in a mathematical equation? no. are there some connections that aren't entirely accidental. probably so. it may even ALL be on the subconscious level.. yet that still is one of the levels which influences the motivations for action. and could in some terms fall under the unbrella of "purpose". -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 5:08 PMThanks for the clarification. For a moment I was indeed thinking that you were outlining some sort of Orwellian edu-state.
That said, I can confirm that there is much about our educational system which does indeed lead to the type of situations you describe. After 11 years in the classroom, it's is an unavoidable conclusion of mine that curriculum IS written under a constant cloud of politics, religion, consumerism, and patriotism. Textbooks are written to make students feel happy, safe, and proud of their country. Voices of dissent, while promoted in the abstract world of essays, are usually repressed.
OK ... now I'm all kinds of pissed off. I need a drink. Errrr ... -
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 5:28 PM"I need a drink. Errrr ... "
sorry to hear that..
isn't it funny, (in a vonegutian way). that the world of abstracts is so unvisited in this day and age? -
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 9:05 PMHa! Great word! (as long as you add the second "N")
But would you pronounce it ...
1. von-uh-GOO-shun
2. von-uh-GOOT-ee-un
3. von-uh-GUT-un
4. von-uh-GUT-ee-un
or
5. von-uh-GUH-shun
I'd probably go with #4, OR switch to Vonnegutarian instead. Seems to slide of the psyche more easily. -
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Re: Values
Sun, July 2, 2006 - 1:04 PMi see your point.. yet, in my estimation, vonnegutian still seems more to point. (#1 as for pronunciation)
i guess in part because Vonnegutarian sounds, to me, like one is eating a diet solely consisting of vonneguts. ;' ]
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 3:12 PM"How do you create meaning or motivation/reasons for doing anything? "
though, to rely strictly on logic.. is well, maddening. especially when the general populace doesn't seem to follow such arcane practices.
negotiating between the wells of logic and some type of spirituality (yes, i know, a sudder word for some) is one way.... entering into that emotional/rational hybrid which resonates for one's own self.. the great tricky pathfinding of the ages. -
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 3:23 PMI'm sorry ... "sudder"? Lost me with that one. -
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Re: Values
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 3:52 PMa shudder word... damn sloppy typing
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